[Joel]
So, recording is on. Good! Welcome Pascal Gaudio!
[Pascal]
Thank you very much!
[Joel]
We are honoured to have you here at Haaga-Helia Pasila Campus in our podcast!
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
All right. So, a brief introduction. You have quite a unique story. You’re Canadian born, moved to Finland in 2004.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
And here’s the interesting part, you moved here for love.
[Pascal]
Yes, I moved here for love.
[Joel]
Not just a job, but for love.
[Pascal]
That’s right.
[Joel]
20 years later, you’re now the senior revenue and distribution manager at one of Finland’s leading independent hotel collections.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
That’s quite a journey.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Take us back. How did a Canadian, who moved here for romance, end up becoming a revenue management expert in the Finnish hospitality industry? What happened?
[Pascal]
Yeah. Well, it’s a [sighs] long story. When I finished high school, the only thing that I wanted to do really is to travel the world. So I told myself, ”Why not take this course that was specific for waiters?”
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
They call it the Professional Waiter Diploma. It’s a one year, very intense, you learn about food, about wine. You learn what is good service, how to do the service, what are the different terms and so on. Because I told myself that if I have this course, I will be able to work anywhere in the world. They need waiters everywhere.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So, that journey took me to many places in the world, from Africa, Middle East, Europe, and of course, I worked also in Canada. In Quebec. Quebec, this is the province where I’m coming from.
[Joel]
Right.
[Pascal]
Leading to this, I was working in England in a hotel as a waiter, and this is where I met my wife.
[Joel]
Ah!
[Pascal]
And then, yeah, so a few years after, she came in Canada, studied back in Canada, and then I was working there, and then after a while, she was accepted in a school, and I decided that, okay, now it’s my turn to encourage her path, so I’ll give it a try to Finland. And there I am 20 years later, still here.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And, working. Yeah.
[Joel]
Here we are! Amazing story. This is truly a unique story, and very, very, very, I would say, nice story…
[Pascal]
[laughs]
[Joel]
… to say the least. But what’s fascinating about your background is that you also studied at Haaga-Helia…
[Pascal]
I did.
[Joel]
… back in day and you’re actually a alumnus of the very institution we’re representing today here on the podcast. And I’m, of course, the teacher here.
[Pascal]
Thanks.
[Joel]
Or teaching here in Haaga-Helia. But you also worked at some of Finland’s, I would say most prestigious properties, Kämp Collection Hotels, Radisson Blu, and you even have some connection with the prestigious… I’m not gonna pronounce it, but you’re going to cover it for me, the International Concierge Organization?
[Pascal]
Yeah, Les Clefs d’Or, yes.
[Joel]
I’m not going to repeat that…
[Pascal]
[laughs]
[Joel]
… but exactly what Pascal said. But for the, I would say the last several past several years, you’ve worked at Prime Hotels.
[Pascal]
That’s right.
[Joel]
And Prime Hotels, for those who don’t know, is a privately owned Finnish company that manages unique upscale hotels across Finland. Tell us, what drew you specifically to Prime Hotels, and we’re going to cover this topic later, but the collection, not chain philosophy. Because you have stayed in big chains and, such as Kämp Collection, Radisson, but you chose independent hotels. What, what happened?
[Pascal]
Yes. Well, the path brought me to this company that at the moment we have three hotels. So one in Savonlinna, one in Varkaus, and one in Helsinki Vuosaari-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… hotelli Rantapuisto.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And a beautiful property. We have a small amount of rooms, a lot for meeting and events rooms.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So we have a lot of meeting and events for association, companies, training, name it, anything that has to do with meeting and events, we can cover it, such as wedding as well or celebrations.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So, it’s very, very beautiful. The building was built in the 1960s-
[Joel]
Cool.
[Pascal]
… by a bank. It was a training center for the bank employees and management and also to host some people that we were, that they were invited there. So, it’s built with money.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
So you can really see it, the warm wood from floor to ceiling. Even the ceiling by itself, it’s a chêne vert.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
It’s absolutely beautiful. And it gives basically on the Finnish Gulf, on the sea.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So we have those massive windows that gives on the nature.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So you’re 15 minutes from the center, and then you have one of the most healthy place in the basically in the forest next to the sea with the beautiful view, that you can gather there either for a staycation or for for meeting and events. So, yeah, very beautiful place. And then we have in Savonlinna as well.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Savonlinna was actually, has also a long history. It’s, um, We have a spa hotel casino that is called and it was one of the first spa in Finland. The original building-
[Joel]
Oh really?
[Pascal]
… has burned as of now, but it’s, it comes, has a very long history when it comes to that. And then we have the restaurant, Vanha Casino, that is right next to us.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Beautiful property as well, all of wood. And also the rooms there, they have a wonderful view on the lakes. So, a lot of things to do with natures and, and fresh air and-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… activities that we can do. [laughs] After this, we have Hotel Oscar that is located in Varkaus.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And this is quite particular because, it’s, the surrounding is very corporate in the sense that there is a lot of paper factory. So at the beginning of the 1900, actually, it really lift up 150 years ago, it was one of the biggest company for paper mill in the world. So it has very … It, it’s very interesting when you go into the city, you can really see all the factories there through the city. And they also have very nice, um, older building, historical building, so, yeah, it’s very, very special.
[Joel]
Nice, nice. So I’m hearing a lot of stories, a lot of history. We have a destination in Helsinki, we have destinations in, let’s say outside of Helsinki, the more countryside-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… Finland. So fascinating, and, we’re gonna dive, deep dive into these topics of what is this mentality of collection, not a chain. So, but thank you for introducing-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… our hotels with the, yeah, let’s say in-depth-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… details. Um, so as you’ve been around, let’s say in hospitality industry for quite some time, I’m just gonna kick off this deep dive to other topics. Can you pinpoint any, I would say, from your point of view, the most significant technological breakthrough in hospitality industry during your career? What has been the, let’s say, eureka moment, when it comes to hospitality tech?
[Pascal]
Yeah. Yeah, I would say now that I’m in revenue management, it’s really how do you use the data to better serve your customer?
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
To better serve your customer, to better do the pricing as well. What is the right price at what time? Because as a revenue manager, what we do is that we try to predict the future. So there are some things that we assume to be true, but there is a lot of unknown as well.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So what you assume to be true, those systems they will be able also to help guiding the pricing decision or, when finding out when it’s gonna be busy or not busy. So those revenue management systems are, are very good for that because then they will pick up, for example, how much pickup you get. So meaning that how many rooms on any given day here in advance you will have.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And this is will tell you that, okay, on that day, I have a lot of demand so the price probably should go a little bit higher than usual-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense. So that was quite, very, very good. And then, after this we have other system that is telling us, okay, what is the competition actually pricing? For how much do they price? Where do I stand? How much I wanna price compared to what the competition is offering-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… according to the service that I provide and according to my own demand.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So, those systems has proven to be very helpful for those, those things. Yes.
[Joel]
Nice. You already jumped onto our first main topic, revenue intelligence.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
But I was gonna actually ask, revert back a little bit and, you said this competition monitoring or benchmarking competitions.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Any specific examples come to mind how you do it? Any systems you want to mention? Because one of the, let’s say, the key focus points of this podcast-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… is to not just entertain, but educate-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… listeners. And most of our listeners, ideally, and I’m hoping-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… are future professionals, but also the professionals currently working in the industry.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
So if you want to highlight some specific tool which made difference-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… especially in understanding the market-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… situation, et cetera, go for it.
[Pascal]
Okay. Well, we’re using a system that is called Lighthouse.
[Joel]
Lighthouse.
[Pascal]
And Lighthouse, what it does is that a very platform that is very intuitive-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and it gives you very clearly who is your comp set.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So when you select your comp set, you have to find out, okay, which location I am.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Why those hotels are my comp set?
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And, then we can re- they … We can really define if it makes sense. Because if you have a hotel that has 300 rooms and you have only 100 rooms, then we have to think of the inventory and how much, how much it makes sense to price according to the amount of rooms that you have-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and the kind of distribution and what kind- type of business that is coming in. So this is, very, very good once you have this setup. Then you can see the price of your competition.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Uh, for example, if it’s a two-night stay, because some of the competition are s- when you do your own pricing, you might give a discount when it’s two nights or three nights. It’s letting you know, flexible cancellation or nonrefundable.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So what is the cheapest price available? So you can see and decide what you want to see-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and then you can take decision according to that as well.
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
There is also, in that system, that they provide what are the events-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… happening in your region or in your city. Because the … Those events are massive factor of demand. So if, for example, when Coldplay is coming to the city?
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
So we get a lot of people from Finland, all over Finland coming to Helsinki-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… to see that show. They need rooms. But not only from Finland, they also have-
[Joel]
That’s right.
[Pascal]
… people that is coming from Sweden, from all over the, all over Europe, and even beyond that-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… to come in Helsinki and see that show. While that event is happening for that purpose and people are coming for that purpose of stay, there’s still all this more regular business that is still going on-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… that you still have to cover. So this is making the demand so high that the price are going higher.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And for the destination, this is so important because most of the year you don’t have those big events.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And, hotels are very costly.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
You have the property, the electricity, the cleaning, the staff. So when you have a big event, those are the moment that the hotels can actually make some money-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… to continue for the rest of the year.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
In that sense.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So, um, yeah. So this is, is how … It’s one of the tool that is helping you, selecting what kind of price because if you price 100 euros more than everybody else-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… it’s most likely you’re not gonna get the business.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
If you price lower than everybody else, then yes, you might get more business, but maybe you’re not gonna make as much revenue as you could have… because-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… you’re underpricing.
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
So this is one of the tool among many other aspect that you have to consider-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… that is helping you in that pricing decision.
[Joel]
Very nice. Thanks for the very, specific and detailed example.
[Pascal]
[laughs]
[Joel]
… very much appreciated. And here was a deep dive also for our listeners into the basics of revenue management so-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Um, so moving to revenue intelligence, so not just revenue management, but revenue intelligence, and let’s see, what, thoughts you have, and comparing now to traditional revenue management. So revenue intelligence in my point of view, it’s the skills of revenue management enhanced by technology-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… for example, using data to-
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm.
[Joel]
… create more customer value, et cetera.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Um, but what, what, what is your take on revenue intelligence versus the traditional revenue management. As said, you have long history, your skills have been upgraded through technology.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
What are your thoughts?
[Pascal]
Yes. I think this is making it faster, the decision, and more accurate.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So, because you see trends-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… so the trends is helping you to say that, ”Okay, every June every year, usually we get much more people coming to my hotel-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… or to the destination than any of the month of the year.” So this is helping you pricing and organizing your, your business accordingly.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Again, giving the data, where are the people coming from. Do I have most of the people that are coming from Finland or from Germany or from United State?
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So this is helping you also serving better your customers-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… because when you know where they’re coming from, you can adapt accordingly as well.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
If you have many people that are coming from Asia, you might consider of saying that, ”Okay, maybe I should have Asian dish-”
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
”… in my breakfast in the morning.” So this is the kind of things that, that it’s helping those system to really answer faster the demand of your customer and the pricing as well.
[Joel]
Nice. So being fast, being accurate, and meeting the demand-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… in essence. Nice.
[Pascal]
And the needs and the wants of-
[Joel]
Of course.
[Pascal]
… of who you, who you are serving.
[Joel]
Of course, yes. Cool. Um, well, this is an obvious question, but how does AI, the hot potato of, of today’s news-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… all over the place, how does AI and data analytics work in practice at Prime Hotels? I’m sure you are kind of the master-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… mind or master of puppets when it comes to this, this, um-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… these tools, but how do you see AI and data analytics work in Prime Hotels today?
[Pascal]
Yeah. Again, AI is helping us really to, to get the data a little bit faster and to organize in some cases what is important and what is not.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
It’s highlighting, in a way, those bullet points in a simple language of what you should be applying or what it’s, it’s going to help. And then, of course, you have to always think of your, of your own experience.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
You have to add to this, because the AI, there is something that they don’t necessarily know that you know because of your own experience in that sense.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
It’s the, it’s the same, again, the, when we consider the events. We don’t necessarily know what events during the summer in July is going to happen two years from now.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So the AI doesn’t know either.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
But as your experience, this is a simple example now, but you know that it is most likely a concert of significance-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… happening in July-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense. So those are the kind of things that, that you have to, to adapt.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
The… Yes.
[Joel]
Yeah, no, nice. I like the fact that you’re kind of bringing in the power of technology with the human intuition and the human experience.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Uh, and I would say the knowledge, of experts-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… experts in the field. Um, but how do you ensure revenue decisions serve both bottom line and the customer experience? So you’ve been already talking about using data to bring customer value and understanding what price serves the customer when it comes to meeting needs and meeting the demand. Um, when do you trust the algorithm, what it’s saying something to you, and when do you override it with your own personal expertise?
[Pascal]
Yes. Yeah, that’s, that’s a good, that’s a very good question. I think because when you do it daily, you kind of do, do it without, without realizing it in that sense. And, it’s all about comparing what is happening in any given time. And what kind of business that you are there.
So in revenue management, we divide very often by segment the type of business that is coming, meaning that you will have the individual. And then the individuals, we call them transient. You will divide them. Every hotel does it a little bit different, but in brief, you will divide them, for example, as business and leisure. After that you can subdivide them in other categories. Where are they coming from? Are they coming from OTAs, direct, from the wholesaler? That’s another aspect that you have to, to consider.
After that, you have the groups.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So once you have the groups, the groups you can divide them in many different segments as well, which would be association, corporate, wedding, sport, and so on. As much as the type of business that is coming to your hotel.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So sometimes you will notice that you have a major pickup on any given day.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And that is because or might be because you have a group in-house already. And then you have some of the transient, and then you notice that, ”Oh, okay, what is going on there? Now I have to find out that maybe I didn’t notice one of those event or sport event that are happening near my hotel.”
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So this is how you, you kind of adapt of saying that, ”Oh yeah, this makes sense actually because I have a sport group in-house. I see there’s many people, more people than usual.”
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So you really try to dive in… dive in of what is happening, and is it, this going to be affecting the demand of my hotels? In principle, when you have a group from, a sport group, you already have that reflection. But it’s just to give a little bit of an idea of how we use it.
[Joel]
Yeah. So sensing those hidden signals-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… trying to, uh, complete the puzzle.
[Pascal]
Yes, absolutely, yes.
[Joel]
Yeah, sorry. Or like a mystery solver. Yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
It’s a, it’s a, it’s a massive web. Revenue management is a massive web.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So when you pull on the web, what’s happening is that what is immediately around the web-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… pulls more than what is around.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
But what’s around is also affected. Maybe not as much as where you’re pulling-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… but still affecting. So it’s 100%
[Joel]
I like this metaphor.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Very, very cool. Uh, last question when it comes to revenue intelligence and using data to boost both customer value and also profit.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Um, unbundling is huge at the moment. According to our data, roughly 87% of travelers prefer paying only for amenities they use.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Not for the full package, but they really want to tailor their, their experience. Um, but how do you unbundle without making guests feel they need to really pinpoint what they want to buy actually? Where is the balance between unbundling and providing a excellent experience?
[Pascal]
Yeah. Some it- some of it is by trial and error.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Some of it is that you have to be able to recognize the type of customer that are coming to your hotel. And different type of customer wants different things.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So there are some people that, for example, they’re very happy of saying that, ”Okay, I’m going to buy a room, and it’s going to be room only.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
”I don’t want to have breakfast. I don’t want to have anything extra because I want to stay in, in the hotel-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
”… and then I want to explore straight away in the morning because I’m not really eating breakfast anyway.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So this is something for them that is important. Uh, then you have some other people that they will be, ”Okay, I’m coming for leisure. I don’t want to think and organize too much. I want to have everything included.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So they will take the breakfast included. They might take a half board, meaning that it’s gonna make with lunch and dinner-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… right? Um, and even some activities in some case, depending of your location, what your hotel is, is offering.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So it’s really … We always have to remember that there are so many different type of people with different wants, and what’s important to them is very important to them, so they’re willing to pay for it.
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
So you have to be able to kind of diversify what you are offering in order to answer as many people as possible.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
After that, of course, if you have, 0.01% of people that wants to have, um, accommodation and local non-alcoholic beer included-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… maybe this is not the right package to offer because it’s going to demand too much-
[Joel]
Yeah, exactly.
[Pascal]
… of time for the staff, for to create that package. And then it’s gonna take space also, because every time that you sell something, it’s taking space of what people they see about your hotels.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So that’s, that’s how you have to kind of find out what are the best seller and what is answering as much people.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
One of the thing that we can think as well is what kind of channels? Where the people are coming from? What I’m selling to who?
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So there will be some channels that we- I will be able to sell different product according to different demands or a different type of segment that I was talking a little bit earlier.
[Joel]
Yeah, exactly. So in essence, know your audience.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
And return on investment being time and resource and, of course, money-
[Pascal]
Table.
[Joel]
… to actually make it happen.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Excellent. Cool. All right. Um,
I think we can jump into the collection, not chain philosophy of Prime Hotels.
[Pascal]
Sure, yes.
[Joel]
I think this is a very, fun, fun topic and fun theme. Um,
I think we can kick it off from … So what is your take on balancing consistency and personality across your hotel collections?
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Because usually, people relate chains-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… as you get what you have already received when you last time visited a chain hotel.
[Pascal]
True. Yeah.
[Joel]
Um, but how does being truly independent change your daily operations? How can you be personal, be a collection of hotels-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… rather than a chain of hotels?
[Pascal]
Yes. Yeah.
[Joel]
So what is your take?
[Pascal]
So I’m coming … One of the first, hotel I was working for, the chain was Radisson.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And that was excellent in a way training. Back then, they had the 100% satisfaction, Yes, I Can.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So really excellent service and excellent philosophy. And what is the big advantage of those hotel chain is that they offer or almost guarantee a certain experience.
[Joel]
Hmm.
[Pascal]
Because what is scary for anyone is to try something new-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… because it might be awesome, or you might not like it. Once you go to one of those hotel chain, you kind of, ”Okay, I know about the bed, how it’s gonna be. I know about how the breakfast is gonna be and, and what the service should be as well.”
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So, this is giving, giving kind of comfort in that sense. That said, we are a small hotel, independent hotel.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So all those basics, of course, we apply them because-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… how can I say? I feel sometimes that we are a little bit … Do you know Asterix and Obelix?
[Joel]
Yes. Yes.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
But do tell.
[Pascal]
So we feel a little bit like those Gaulois.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
The people that are … You have all those big chains, and then we have small independent-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… that is resisting. And what is our potion?
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
It’s the people-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and their know-how. That’s our potion. And how do we adapt and how we can pivot any kind of situation.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
One of the challenge, sometimes not all the big chains, but one of the challenge is that you have your, your, frontline staff.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And their knowhow, and their experience, they have the pulse immediately of what is happening.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So if you’re able to listen to them, you can adapt to whatever demand that is happening into your hotels.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
If you see that, okay, hey, I notice that the younger people, they don’t like so much the alcohol-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… cocktails, but they asking a lot about mocktail. In my company, it takes less than a week, and we can have mocktail happening-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… to make sure that we answer that demand already that we have noticed as a team there.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
While the bigger chains, sometimes that prove to be in some cases, not all of them, again-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… a little bit more of a challenge because they have to go to many stage of management and corporate to get there.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So maybe that, that facility to pivot into and adapting to the demand and answering, um, is, is something that I really appreciate as a small company because my knowledge, as well as my colleagues’ knowledge, we can really use it to serve better our customer. And this has impact on the revenue as well, because if you have the right product to sell, then you’re able to sell that more as well.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And this also for the customer, they feel like, ”Oh, they’ve listened to us.”
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
”Last time we came, there was not so many mocktail and now there is 10 available.” Just to give an example, this is just-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… um, a how we can, we can adapt in, in some cases.
[Joel]
Yes.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Nice. So being adaptable, being agile-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… I would say, trusting the frontline.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
I like that part because-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… most companies run from top down. I believe-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… that it should be more, guidance from above and then tactics and-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… strategy and putting it into action coming from, from the bottom.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Because that’s the frontline-
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm.
[Joel]
… in essence.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
That’s where you get those hidden signals. You get the, you hear about trends, you hear about patterns, you hear about-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… asks, but does the upper levels understand-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… what’s happening below?
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm.
[Joel]
That’s, I think-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… that’s not just-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… a challenge for hospitality industry-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… but it’s a challenge for many industries. Um, and actually, I want to, because, I hear you talk passionately about the frontline people and-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… the people on the ground, es-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… essentially, the people who are making happen the escape the ordinary.
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm.
[Joel]
Right?
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Uh, that’s still valid? In part.
[Pascal]
Yeah, in part, yes.
[Joel]
In part, yes. Um, so how do you see staff roles evolving? Because, again, we’re in this podcast, we’re talking about also the-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… impact on technology.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
So how do you see the staff roles evolving? Are we still kind of part of the machine or are we separating the staff members from the machine-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… in quotes?
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Um, and re- let’s say giving the freedom for the staff members to, I wouldn’t say entertain, but really serve the guests-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… who are entering?
[Pascal]
Yeah. So, this is something that is going, in my opinion, for the future, and now already it’s happening, sometimes not all the time, because the hospitality industry has, it’s known to have quite a high turnover.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Right? So you have a waiter that is coming, it’s gonna stay with you for few months, few years.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And then they will find another job or they will go as a management or and so on. So this is a little bit challenging in that sense. So what is important is to answer the service quality and make sure that you train everyone that you’re with-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… very properly-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense.
[Joel]
Yes.
[Pascal]
Because some people, they have natural talent or natural personalities that is very, very kind of like, a little bit like a magnet.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
They’re just, they feel very comfortable and things like this. But even these people, they have rooms to learn something, how to answer better the needs or better to do the service in that sense. So I believe in the future, what is going to happen is that we’re going to have our frontline much more professional and trained.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Because the impact of this on your business is so important.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
We’ve seen, in some cases, we know that some of our competitor, indirect competitor will be, those properties or rooms-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… that are self check-in.
[Joel]
Yep.
[Pascal]
Uh, you basically have no staff that you see during your entire stay.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Yeah? And we saw in some cases that the satisfaction also increased. And then you have to wonder why this has increased that satisfaction, is because your frontline has as much power as giving an awesome stay, exceptional stay to your customer-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… or not.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
All those friction moments that might be happening with your staff-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… might make the, the customer the reviews and the feedback and the satisfaction a little bit lower.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So we can’t underestimate this. This is so important that every time that you have your staff in contact with customer, they give a one. Because at the end of the day, the frontline, I’ve been frontline myself working as a waiter, as a receptionist, we are feel good giver.
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So this is what we do.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
You have someone, you give a smile, you give some recommendation, you care about the person.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
When you care about the person, then you have your stress that’s this going down-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and the satisfaction that goes up and then the reviews that are going up.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So we’re very lucky in our company that we have a lot of those guys that gives this superior customer service-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… because this is helping us also having people that wants to stay with us. They leave good reviews, and then some people they read those good reviews and they say, ”I want to experience this-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… for myself. Somebody that takes care of me, a human.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Um, not to be dramatic here, but, there is something-
[Joel]
Go for it. [laughs]
[Pascal]
Yeah, there is something that I was actually seeing this report that was saying that loneliness is one of the, of the most cause of illness and, and even death.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine.
[Pascal]
And, and to a certain extent, the frontline, and not only in hotel-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… but, everybody that is working in customer service, they have the power of giving a smile and make someone else feel good.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? The, to begin when, and to give that moment that is helping the entire society in a way.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Every contact in that sense. And then you, you will be wondering sometimes just like, ”Yeah, I’m in the frontline, and I’m doing this days out and days out. And this is quite heavy because there’s some of the customer that is complaining.” And very often it’s the minority of the people that are complaining.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And this can become a challenge to change their mind so they feel a little bit better.
[Joel]
Yep.
[Pascal]
And sometimes you will wonder also and you’re just like, [sighs] ”You know, I’m allowed also to feel bad. I come to work-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
”… I didn’t have a good day, have my own drama in my life.” It, it’s just like that is true.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
But when you work, when you force yourself to smile-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and then acting-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and then sometimes you’re just wondering, you’re just like, ”Okay, acting, Pascal. You ask to be genuine, you ask to be true, and then all of a sudden that you’re telling me that I have to be acting now?” Yes. Act the best version of yourself.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
Because once you give that to someone else, that person might give you a smile back, and it’s gonna make you feel good for the rest of the day as well. So, this is the thing that after this it becomes that, for the revenue guy, the money guy-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… it becomes revenue generating because the people, they can recognize that. They’re not gonna go to that hotels that they don’t see anyone. They will have that feelgood moment, that care, that, that is, that is given in that sense.
[Joel]
Wow. Amazing. Amazing story. Thanks for sharing. And
I… For all, all the listeners out there, if you are, let’s say, feeling you want to be smiled at, for example, or you want to be feeling good, go to Prime Hotel.
[Pascal]
[laughs]
[Joel]
[laughs] Um, amazing. There were so many sub-topics you mentioned-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… about turnover, training, um, no staff, yes staff or on- onsite staff and acting, not acting as someone else but acting as the best version of yourself.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
That really stuck in with me, and I hope our dear listeners and my fellow colleagues, et cetera, remember at least this part-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… of this podcast. Uh, and we’re gonna have you for a second round. I think there’s-
[Pascal]
[laughs]
[Joel]
… a lot of topics to discuss.
[Pascal]
My pleasure.
[Joel]
Um, but please remember, act as the best version of yourself.
[Pascal]
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
[Joel]
That doesn’t really take much.
[Pascal]
It’s so rewarding.
[Joel]
You’re not faking it.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
You’re actually making it.
[Pascal]
Exactly.
[Joel]
Um,
I need to ask this question because we are talking about staff, and we’re here in Haaga-Helia. What does Haaga-Helia need to teach future hotel professionals about this approach? Going back to the, let’s say the grand old times of hospitality-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… keeping the door open, smiling, asking if there’s anything you can do, whatever.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Uh, so from your point of view, a few examples. What should me, personally, h- what should I teach-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… my students-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… when it comes to providing this excellent, excellent-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… guest experience?
[Pascal]
I think it has to do a little bit with… again, I repeat myself, but this superior service quality-
[Joel]
Yes.
[Pascal]
… assigned for this with a little bit of that psychology.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So, a little bit for why would they do that? Why would I provide that? So it’s-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… important for you to understand what of are the impact of giving good service quality-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and then the impact on others, something that is specific for this. And I was really lucky because early in my career when I started as a waiter, there was, back in then, in Quebec, Canada, there was a program that was giving us this course that was about customer service quality. And this really shaped a little bit the way I see things, and then I added with my experience along the way-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… the different, different ways of doing to ensure that I, that I, I provide that. So again, because it’s a feelgood for yourself-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and for your customer and it’s money generating as well.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Because people are willing to pay for those moments. People-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… they’re not willing to have to pay so much for bad experience.
[Joel]
Yeah. Sure.
[Pascal]
So, they’re willing to have something that is going to be extraordinary or you have to be also able to recognize your customers sometimes.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
There are some customers that are gonna come here and they will have maybe a mood that is not the best.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Maybe then for those people to be all jolly and happy-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… maybe this is not the way of doing for that person. You have to be able to adapt and recognize this to change yourself to answer the demand and the needs of that person.
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
Because ma- they coming to your hotel for a certain purpose-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and, and that’s it.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
I had this example very often because I was very outgoing when I was a waiter and I was selling and I was just trying to recommend everything that was the best, the wine, the dessert-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… why you should take it, how it’s gonna be better. And sometimes I had some customer, they were sitting, they were not smiling. I didn’t take it personality. Perso- with personal.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
What I did is I adapted. I was more low-key, and that was one of the best tip I ever got.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Because I was able to recognize that in one table I could act a certain way, and I was respecting the mood of those people at that time and adapting accordingly.
[Joel]
Yeah. That’s a very good example, and I think you’re kind of, um, explaining skill of mirroring.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
So really trying to reflect on-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… the mood, the level of energy.
[Pascal]
You have to listen.
[Joel]
Yeah. Just the, the small, small hints and signals. And I think that’s also something we can’t really recognize in the [music] let’s say, the modern world where we have a lot of these video calls and a lot of these, um, remote meetings, et cetera. You lose the touch of noticing the small-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… signals from the face or the expressions or how you stand or what is-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… your energy level because that doesn’t really broadcast through digital channels.
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm, true, yeah.
[Joel]
So I think in that sense, people should really go out there, try to meet people.
[Pascal]
Absolutely.
[Joel]
And I need to highlight, um, it was part of a research, um, and one of the answers, like, why, why do you go to a hotel?
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Let’s say why does a person living in Helsinki stay in a Helsinki hotel?
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
And one of the answers really stood out, um,
it wo- it went something like this, ”I go to hotels to be noticed.”
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
And that just blew my mind.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
I was like how many hoteliers actually think about this part-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… that people not… they don’t come to the hotel for the breakfast, they might-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… but not just for the breakfast or sleeping in, in their bed or-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… staying in your lobby, they come there to be noticed.
[Pascal]
Everyone, yes.
[Joel]
And that just, you know, struck me.
[Pascal]
If you go into the research now, you’re really getting to me with those-
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
… things because I love this, this kind of things. I did m- my… Part of my thesis was-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… to highlight those things.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And, it was very fascinating to see that some of the research they’ve done, it was something between 70 to 80%, of any customer of any business-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… they will never go back to that business if they had the feeling of being ignored.
[Joel]
Whoa.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
That’s quite a lot.
[Pascal]
So, of course, they might go because they don’t have choice or they have-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… to go to the supermarket anyway, but that feeling that you had that you went in and nobody did the eye contact or notice you-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… they might not be as willing as going back.
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
Right? And all it took for the, for the staff or for the frontline is to give eye contact.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
I like to give that example that… I’m sure that we all experienced in the past.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
You are, in a bar, it’s super busy-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… you’ve been queuing for five minutes, 10 minutes.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
You have the barman that goes up and down-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and then you’re starting to get a, [sighs] a little bit annoyed or just.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And then you have the same situation, but then while the cocktail is being made-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… the, the waiter is just giving you, like-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… nodding at you.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
You will wait twice more-
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
… because you know your turn is coming, somebody cared about you, you being noticed.
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
So exactly in the line that you’ve been saying.
[Joel]
Yeah. Lovely, thanks for sharing-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… again. You have so many good-
[Pascal]
[laughs]
[Joel]
… examples. Um-
[Pascal]
Try to-
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
… keep it simple.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Um, moving to, let’s say, reflecting on your background-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… and how your background as a Canadian.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Uh, well, nowadays, of course, more Finn, I suppose-
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm.
[Joel]
… but, um, the Canadian perspective.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
So you have a unique vantage point, you are Canadian, you have the international experience-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… and now you’ve been living in Finland for quite some time.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Um, and I’m actually curious, as you’ve worked in Finnish hotels, um, what do Finnish hotels do in terms of service or hospitality that surprised you-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… when you came to Finland first time around and, uh-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… let’s say the first years in Finland-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… uh, working in the industry? Um, do you have some, some, some specific, something specific that you think, ”This is clearly Finnish-”
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
”… this is not happening anywhere else-”
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
”… and it works.”
[Pascal]
Yeah, yeah.
[Joel]
So do you have any examples on that one?
[Pascal]
Yeah. So, there is many part of that, that question.
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
So, as I said, I started my career in Quebec, Canada.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So as a waiter. So the system that it works there as a waiter is that you work on tip.
[Joel]
Yep.
[Pascal]
So the better service that you’re doing-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… the better tips that you’re gonna get. We call it ʻpourboireʼ.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So, you give a service and then you get a bill and then it’s normal to give between 10, 15, 20 or even sometimes 25% out of the bill that-
[Joel]
Oh.
[Pascal]
… you’re doing. So that really develops into, the waiters, this kind of entrepreneurship-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… skill in that sense, because you see what is important.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
You see that when you give a good, a good service, you might get a good tip.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
You see that the more you’re selling-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… the more the bill increase and that 15% means that you get more money.
[Joel]
Bigger share.
[Pascal]
Right.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
A bigger share out of this and then you see the different type of people, what is important for them, so you will make sure, for example, that your glasses are polished-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… that your cutlery is polished, that everything is clean, that there is no dust around, that it’s all wiped out because maybe you have, let’s say, 10% of the people, they don’t see it-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
But that 10% that is noticing those thing, it’s bothering them and they might give you less tip because of that.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? So that really shape in a way, uh, the way it becomes almost an instinct all those knowledge, you really have to apply straightaway because it has effect on your paycheck at the end of the month.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And, after that, I started to travel
and then I’m passionate about hospitality and things like this and I’m just, when you travel, you meet people, so you’re always in that situation that you’re the visitors and the host. So every culture I experience, they like to talk about themself and sharing who they are.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? They take care of you.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
It’s come- it’s very basic. So that’s why in a way it’s very easy to get into the hospitality industry because we have it all in us, that one.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
The thing is to remind yourself of this every day of the year-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and to provide that might be challenging because it’s every day and becomes monotone, but you have to remotivate yourself of doing what everybody likes to do.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
You like to have someone and they come to your house, you give a tour of the house, what you have new, you have a spaghetti bolognese that you put special spices, you’re excited to serve this to your, to your friends and then the friend, on the other hand, feels good because he get to taste his friend’s dishes, is at home-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And then you exchange like that.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So that perspective is kind of, kind of something that… as a frontline gave really to me, kind, maybe an advantage because I didn’t have choice. All those really impacted how much I’m going to gain, and it started to make sense and build my own customer service that I was doing in order to make as much money as possible.
When you do this, your bosses and the owners, they’re very happy as well because then the bill increases, they’re able to make more revenue-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… they’re able to make more profit. And very often those entrepreneurs, what did we do? It’s not all about profit. With that profit, they will reinvest and will open another restaurant, and they will hire more people, and then you will have a combination that is working. So it’s all linked together.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
When you have that attitude, how do you serve also your- your colleague, and how do you act with them? How can you work as a team to make sure that everything is covered?
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So those, this is really, really the thing. Um,
maybe now we are, when I came to Finland and what I noticed.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
[laughs] I don’t know. There- there was few questions there.
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
So when I came to Finland, one of the thing that- that I noticed and that I liked a lot is that in Finland, either that you’re working at the reception or that you’re working as a waiter-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… if our management is that we are, uh… I say we because I’ve been here for so long.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Uh, in Finland, we are multitasking.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? So you will have many hotels in different part of the world is that you will have a receptionist, and the receptionist will do check-in/check-out all day, and this will be their specialty, which is fair.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
But in Finland it’s more difficult. The Finns, they like to- to kind of expand and try and see how much we can do other things, and, and then they they like to know why.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? Which is super important. And this is a little bit of a challenge in some cases, is that sometimes you will have a book, and they will say, like, ”Okay, this is how you do the work.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? You give that service quality, you have to smile, you have to say that sentence this way, you have to answer within three rings, and- and so on.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Which is excellent for a base.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
But in Finland, you have to explain why.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Once you actually say, ”Okay, why any procedure you do,” then it makes sense, and then they are able to apply it with- with being genuine and time after time.
[Joel]
Yeah, exactly.
[Pascal]
Right? So this is what I really kind of liked, in that sense, and the fact that they’re very often multi-language, and-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… they’re interested to really serve the people into their own language and- and things like that. So-
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
… this is something that, that I- I really, really admire, yes.
[Joel]
Nice. Great to hear. Uh, and you are one of us, uh-
[Pascal]
[laughs]
[Joel]
… as Finns nowadays. So, um, so I’m really hearing, again, reflecting back on acting. So even though you’re, you might have those demotivated days, you’ve been doing it for many, many days, and you just really need to reignite-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… the motivation and act your best version of yourself.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Uh, knowing your why, the purpose.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
So again, there’s a very popular book, Start with Why, uh, and it’s very nice to hear-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… that actually it, is being implied in Finland as well-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… that we actually need to know-
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm.
[Joel]
… know the why-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… before we start doing it-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… because, again, the motivation starts with understanding-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… the purpose behind it.
[Pascal]
Yeah. And maybe we don’t often provide it enough, the why.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
And that- that is the thing that is like an opportunity that can’t be missed in that sense if you don’t do it.
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
Right? Some company, again, they do it really well-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… some less, but it’s something that, as industry, we have to remind ourself in order to be the best we can.
[Joel]
True, true. And also touching on the entrepreneur mindset. Never thought about it-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… to be honest, but I think there is a lot of, I would say, good arguments on behalf of, everyone’s, I would say everyone has a very small entrepreneur-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… inside of them.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Some might leverage that skill level. Some might just push back and-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… do- do their thing.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Uh, but I think having this entrepreneur mindset, you’re- you’re not just working just for the work’s sake, but you’re working for the purpose of the business.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Uh, which is providing, in the end, providing excellent customer service or, bringing extra value-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… to the, to the people who are actually, uh, consuming, consuming the service. And also having the long-term vision of building loyalty, building your, I would say, the tribe-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… as well. Because at the end of the day, if you treat everyone poorly, no one’s going to follow you and no one doesn’t really care even though you have great service, et cetera. But if you have the combination of the motivated staff members, knowing the why, having the entrepreneurial-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… mindset-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… I think that’s like, from my point of view, a winning formula.
[Pascal]
Yeah. And individually as well, if it’s not necessarily the entrepreneurship-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… it’s part of your own history.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? So your own resume, what you achieved in life-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… how you recognize those exceptional things that you have done, and then to keep pushing in- innovation, or you keep pushing in doing what you do best every day.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? This is part of your own history that you can share with pride-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense that you were, you were proud of being of that team and you were part of the success of that team.
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
Right? Or part of making it better in that sense.
[Joel]
Yeah. And
I would say the last question or the second question on- on this, Canadian perspective, let’s flip the coin.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
So what can Finnish hotels learn from international hotels or international hospitality? You already mentioned a few, previously, but if you want to add more-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… more examples.
[Pascal]
Yeah. I would say as a, as a-The thing is that in Finland, in Helsinki, we do things really well. We have a very good reputation.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
It’s a safe place. We have amazing hotels. And I’m talking about the competition as well.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Some of the newest built, they’re built with excellent design, the… with excellent service concept, and this… In my opinion, it’s not recognized worldwide half-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… as it should be.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? Helsinki has beautiful hotels, beautiful design.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Uh, I’m very proud of the destination, and I think the destination should be giving emphasis even more than this.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Uh, we were talking together-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm, yeah.
[Pascal]
… earlier about the fact that, it’s very famous that you have chefs –
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… uh, Iron Chef-
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
… and celebrity chefs and things-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… like this. And I’m completely with you. What we were discussing about this is that the hotel industry-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… or even other sector of the tourism industry is not recognized enough-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… compared to what we actually provide right now.
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
And the satisfaction. And it’s not hard to see when you just go to those OTA platforms or those review platform, you see what people, they say about Finland.
[Joel]
Yeah. Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
You see what they like and why they would come back or refer to their friends to come to us.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So that thing is a little bit too much, in a way, hidden and this I would do better. Those big chains, that’s what they do really well is that they say, ”Hey, this is what we all about-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and this is… we pushing this-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and then let’s go.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So, more of that, that experience maybe we could do better.
[Joel]
Yeah.
We should really be proud of what we’re doing-
[Pascal]
Oh, yes.
[Joel]
… and talk about it.
[Pascal]
Yes, because we’re providing it already.
[Joel]
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, I… Thanks for bringing that up, and, yeah, it’s… Restaurants, these top chefs, et cetera, those are brilliant. I love going out, out to eat good food, et cetera, but we need something more. We need some-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… superstars in, in the hotel side or in tourism to… in a broader perspective.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
But that’s a different topic and so forth.
Um, jumping to, let’s say… again, going back to more, your revenue expertise.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
So beyond room revenue. So looking at, again, zooming out and trying to see what’s the bigger picture when it comes-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… to running a hotel?
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
So revenue sources in tomorrow’s, tomorrow’s hotel as, as we’re… This podcast is part of our Finnish Hotel of Tomorrow 2.0 project run by Haaga-Helia. Um, what else than room sales?
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
What else?
[Pascal]
Yes. Yes.
[Joel]
What can you sell in hotels?
[Pascal]
Yeah. So the obvious, the obvious things, of course, will be the restaurant.
[Joel]
Yes.
[Pascal]
Right? So this we already do.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And it’s how, what you do with that restaurant. How do you combine the hotels and advertise both the hotel and the restaurants?
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Uh, that is very important. Um, we’re very lucky in our restaurants. We have chef that, in my opinion, they’re fine dining chefs.
[Joel]
Okay. All right.
[Pascal]
It’s like in, in Foruu, in Oscar in Varkaus and then in Savonlinna.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Those meals that they are making-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… is amazing for the price that we get actually.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And when you talk with them, they start talking about the different techniques of how they do one of the thing that, ”Okay, we have our salmon soup. We actually have a proper salmon that is sous-vide-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… for a certain amount of time with some spices.” And it’s, it’s so fascinating to-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… to see that. So how do you translate that message that is recognized and known as much as possible? How does it combine with the experience, the total experience?
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And things like this. So this is something that is very, very close to, to my heart and very-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… that I’m very proud of. After this, of course, maybe, again, it depends of the hotel, but we have the mini-bars.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
A little bit that is kind of changing.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Uh, some of the hotel, they remove the mini-bar altogether because the inventory can be challenging sometimes.
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
If you’re not fully booked, you might get some lost or very often it’s way too expensive.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And, the thing is that if you want to have… Sometimes you would be saying that, ”Okay, I would like to have a Finnish beer there-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… in the mini-bar.” But the international, they don’t know that Finnish beer.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Some of them, they will take it. Some of them, they won’t because they don’t recognize it and they don’t want to risk to pay too much for something that they’re not gonna like.
[Joel]
Yeah, exactly.
[Pascal]
And this is where it comes to the fact we have also a mini-bar and many… Uh, we… Sorry. We have, at the front desk we have-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… also a bar there and many hotel have so.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And what’s the big difference with this? Again, the personal touch.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? The person at the reception or the barman will be able to say what type that Finnish beer is-
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
… right? And be able to sell that accordingly and saying that, ”Oh, yeah, that sounds a little bit like a Budweiser.”
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
”I’ll go for it.”
[Joel]
Yeah. Yeah.
[Pascal]
Or whatever you have in mind. Item by items-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense. So this is something, thing that it’s gonna come.
Of course, is how do we work better after that?
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Because you have your hotels and then around the hotels you have all those activity providers.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? This enhance, again, the experience, the satisfaction and, and when you work really well with those-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… then, you’re able to provide it-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and make discovery or adapting to whatever sport or activities the person might like.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And we have a lot of those, in, in Helsinki and in Finland, so-
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Cool. So I’m hearing personal, personal service equals to potential-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… added sales in, in essence, um-
[Pascal]
Personalize and be able to work together.
[Joel]
Yeah. Exactly.
[Pascal]
Not only what you’re providing, but the people, the partners are so important as well.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I believe hotels will become more of platforms so you kind of s- again start building from, from Lego blocks.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Different options for different, um, collaborators.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Building the network. As you said, you have this, you pull from here and then you kind of pull these partners in-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… because this makes a full experience.
[Pascal]
We already see the OTAs, in some part of the world or even in Finland, already are starting to do this-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
That you’re able to combine more and more. Uh, I will, book hotel X and then I will have this, this, this. And then the hotels themselves-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… themselves, sometimes they don’t do it enough-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… or they don’t have that platform that is organized enough. Some of them do-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and also this is absolute excellence, but, this is something when we talk about the future, what is gonna come, exactly-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… what you said, that platform is gonna be developing to making as personalized as possible.
[Joel]
Nice. How does data analytics help in identifying these opportunities? As you said, you, some people want this local beer or some might want to use the external activity. Do you have some way of kind of already seeing or, seeing these patterns-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… evolve?
[Pascal]
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And this is how, do you use the data again, and then the AI are able to give you those answer a little bit faster-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… but the basic is the same, and we’vebeen doing this, a form of AI for so many years in the-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… on the hospitality industry, and it started with airlines actually, with the revenue management of the airlines.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
They were the first one to do revenue management that is a form of AI-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… to recognize some of the patterns-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and, some of the data to take those decision that are making sense.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So, um, to go back is that, um, there is part of it that is trial and error.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And again, that, that web I was talking about.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So we see, for example, that, okay, maybe in July when it’s holiday-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… we sell a lot of those Finnish beers-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… because maybe those are more leisure-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… people.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
They are willing to try different things, they want to experience, and maybe the rest of the year when it is very business year-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… then maybe a little bit less.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Because they have to wake up in the morning, they have to go and work and, and so on. So those are the patterns that we’re able to see how much we sell, but when do we sell as well?
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
When does it make sense? And the trend is changing as well. As I was talking it a bit before, the mocktail now, for the generation of my sister that is 10-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and 15 years old-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… is much more popular-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… than what it used to be. So this is how, how you adapt for who because you still have maybe another segment that is older that they still want to have their rum and coke.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Don’t talk-
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
… to me about mocktails.
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
Kind of thing.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So this is the, the idea that you have to be able, and then the numbers, they will tell you how much of it that you sell according to who’s coming. So if you see that your demographic is more people in their 40s, you would not take the same decision as people in their 20s.
[Joel]
Yeah, exactly.
[Pascal]
And we have hotels in Helsinki that are like this as well.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
One of, one of the things that we have, um, very nice in our hotels in Rantapuisto for the breakfast, big part of it is vegetarian.
[Joel]
Okay. All right.
[Pascal]
Right? But we also have some bacon and we have the eggs and we have the basics.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And when it came with this, I had my own reserve because I was telling myself, like, ”Yes, vegetarian,” I’m a, I’m a typical breakfast kind of guy.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And, it was a massive success.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And people, they mention it, they like it, and even me, I love it now.
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
Like, all those salads and all those different kind of, vegetarian option that you have there-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… they’re so delicious because again, our chef is, our chef and cooks that are there-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… they’re fine dining level.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
It’s not recognized as such, but, I like to say it because, it is true.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Uh, so this is how you use the data, because then maybe you take a risk. To them, again, was not a risk-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… because they knew this would be working according to their own experience.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And then I was allowing… Um, I didn’t want to be pessimistic. I kept it for me and I say like, ”Okay, let’s see how it goes.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And it was a success.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So this is where you have to, to be very careful of what do I like as well is not necessarily what the majority of people likes or what some people likes.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So you have to be able to serve the different segment and to be open to those things.
[Joel]
Nice. So jumping outside of your own bubble, or let’s say-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… observing the world outside-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… of your bubble-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… and trusting, again, your, colleagues and, and-
[Pascal]
And trying. Yes.
[Joel]
… and, uh, test and learn. You can’t really find out anything if you don’t test and learn.
[Pascal]
Yeah. Listening to each other-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and that thing, yeah.
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
That sort of things.
[Joel]
Love it. Um,
now let’s set our sights into the future. So again, today’s, I would say, the main theme has been, yeah, revenue, customer experience, but also tomorrow’s hospitality.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Right? Um,
let’s look at the big picture. Uh, it’s 2035, so 10 years from now.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Uh, what are travelers actually seeking from hotels, that’s fundamentally different from today? So 10 years from now-
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm.
[Joel]
… travelers are still traveling.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
They’re staying at hotels. What are they looking for? What are they seeking-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… to make it a experience?
[Pascal]
Yes. I think it’s, it’s quite, quite, interesting questions because when you look at the history, it kind of comes back.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
The thing comes back. The trends comes back.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And this is what I think we’re gonna do, but better and more efficiently.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So the technology is going to serve us to be more personalized and to be more effective, and in some cases also saving.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So as I talked, the professionalism, the feelgood moments of what is the frontline providing is going to increase and being, like, much well-recognized profession than what it is-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… now or what has been in that sense.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So this is the thing that I see, but then you have the technology that just makes it easier to organize according to what, what you like.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And to develop as well, because then you’re able to follow the trend and to be on top of it much faster-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense. But that creativity, that new thing, that nobody knows right now will always exist and this, the ChatGPT or the AI-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… won’t necessarily be able to provide.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
They might be able to guide you-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and to light up an idea, but those, this is always going to remain in that sense. I remember there’s, there was this hotel restaurants, they were offering, the bad service quality dinner.
[Joel]
Okay.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
And, I was part of it, as a client, and it was excellent. So it was g- they took it… completely to the other, other way.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
It was like, that they were acting, overacting, doing, doing bad service. It became an excellent experience-
[Joel]
Okay.
[Pascal]
… in that sense, and it was full.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So it’s to see that there is nothing that we can assume to be true 100%. It always change and what is true now might be true in the future-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and most likely or not. But you have to kind of adapt along the way.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So that adaptation would just be more, more efficient.
[Joel]
Yeah, nice. Yeah, we are… Every day we’re building the future.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
We’re really can’t… It is hard to predict-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… because what I choose today, drinking matcha instead of coffee-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… that already shapes my future-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… going forward.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Um, and I like… And I fully agree that we’re kinda like repeating, like history repeats itself.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
It is a saying.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Um, so we’re seeing this nostalgia and we’re seeing the ’90s coming back with the-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… very colorful clothing, etc., and all these trends emerging and how it mixes with the new generation.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
The new generation sees it as a new trend-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… but us old folks-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… we see it like, ”Oh, that’s like throwback to the 90s.”
[Pascal]
When you look for example right now what is, has been quite big is the, the digital detox.
[Joel]
Oh, yes.
[Pascal]
Right? You have this show, White Lotus-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… that was kind of giving emphasis of this or just like-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… leave your phone in the safe-
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
… for two weeks time.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? And it’s kinda funny because I’m from a generation without phones, so when I was going on holiday, I didn’t have my phone.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
I didn’t need to have a detox. So this is how it comes back because then today, I find it super convenient to travel with my phone-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… and to have my phone all the time.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
I love it. But it’s interesting to see that, oh, okay, now there’s a concept of saying that, ”Let’s put the phone in the safe,” which is in a way coming back-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… but which is a way kind of new at the same time.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So that’s very good-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… example of how things are turning.
[Joel]
… turning, yeah. That’s a very good example. And I have been thinking personally of buying this non-smartphone-
[Pascal]
Yeah. [laughs]
[Joel]
… just for phone calls.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
And I’m trying to teach my kids when they grow up a little, a little more, we’re gonna start off with the very basic phone that you can call-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… maybe write a text message. That’s it.
[Pascal]
That’s it. That’s it.
[Joel]
Kinda repeat my own childhood-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… in a sense. Um, but it is surprising, but I, I must admit, traveling with a smartphone is, makes life a lot easier than-
[Pascal]
Absolutely.
[Joel]
… with a pile of paper-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… and, and trying to figure things out.
[Pascal]
Yeah, yeah.
[Joel]
So.
[Pascal]
And I have my, my own kids. It’s very funny because we went to Stockholm, last week, and it was very funny of saying that, ”Okay,” my son, Valter, he is 17.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
He choose the restaurant and you get us there.
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
Right? And just with the phone, looking, ”Oh, that’s a burger place,” and then he just, just went there by himself-
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
… and guiding us there.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
So this is how to use the technology and kind of translating-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… those things. My daughter was about finding some shops, specialized shops-
[Joel]
Okay.
[Pascal]
… that, that, that would like to see and doing their own research to give their own experience according to what they find important-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and sharing this with us.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So it’s an opportunity also to share, but yeah.
[Joel]
And that’s a prime example of tomorrow’s travelers. How do they find things? How do they design their own travel experiences-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… with the help of the phone but still being present-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… in the place where they’re actually visiting. Um, what excites you about AI in hotels, because the adoption rate of hotels, AI in hotels is massive. It’s increasing like annually 60%, 70%. Everyone’s taking AI-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… but what does excite you about AI?
[Pascal]
Yeah. For me, it’s really the efficiency. How-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… how I can use it to better answer the needs of my customers. How can I use it to be more efficient at work and with the people that I work with-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… to make things, sense out of things.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So this is the thing that is very, very exciting. I’m very data-driven.
[Joel]
Yes.
[Pascal]
So this AI for me is like fantastic.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And of course, you have to see it as a reference. And in a way we had Google before, we could type something in Google, it was not half as fast or half as structure-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… but it was there. So this is kind of the next level of how do you work with it and how do you, do you use it in a, in a proper way. Yeah.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah. Final thought on tomorrow’s hospitality, um, or actually the second, second to last. The lines are blurring, you already mentioned that automated hotels, no-staff-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… hotels are on the rise.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
But hotels are also adding coworking spaces-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… they’re turning rooms into day-use rooms-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… office spaces, hotels becoming more like homes-
[Pascal]
Mm-hmm.
[Joel]
… homes becoming like hotels.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Uh, wellness hotels becoming health clinics.
[Pascal]
[laughs]
[Joel]
Um, what even is a hotel-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… in five or 10 years? What-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… what… Is it a platform? Is it something else?
[Pascal]
Yeah. I think it’s gonna be more or less the same but maybe, again, more, uh, focusing on certain targets.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And again, those comes and go according to the trends because we know that the spa hotels have been existing for so many years.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
And they still exist now, but, then they are specialized in spa hotel. Then a century-located hotel that just needs, those basic rooms, comfortable stay, comfortable bed-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… that answer a certain type of segment that we’re going to, that, that this person need-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense. So I believe that it shows those trends are going to constantly come back-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and being, being… There is not one fits all-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… basically. And this is something sometimes that we’re trying to, to do of saying that, ”Okay, I have a hotel in position X or in that location-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
”… and I want everybody to come.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? But it’s not necessarily true because whatever you do some of the people, they’re not going to necessarily like the style. They would prefer to another style. It’s, we’re going to answer their own needs in that sense.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
So, um, yeah… that’s, that’s, that’s the way I see it.
[Joel]
Yeah, the lines are blurring, that is for sure.
[Pascal]
Yeah. The-
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
… The are, the, they definitely blurring, but it’s just to answer better in a way different type of travelers.
[Joel]
Yeah, exactly.
[Pascal]
And, and, and again, that, I truly believe that personal touch, human touch-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… it might come back even stronger.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
We talk about Les Clefs d’Or briefly-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… which is concierge association.
[Joel]
Yes.
[Pascal]
A worldwide concierge association, and they are like the pros of the pros, legends in their cities. They are the one with the golden keys on their-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… lapel.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
On their, on their, on their jacket. And, when you go to them, they are able to organize whatever you have in mind or suggest something that will maximize your stay.
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
Right? So very often we have the, the thing of saying, ”Oh, okay, but I have Google. I know what I like. I can do…” But then you don’t have the experience necessarily.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
Those, concierges, they know what’s happening in the city and they experience that themself as well.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So once you have that type of person, you relate and then you’re able really to say that, ”Yeah, I’ve been there myself.” This is kind of like a stamp of guarantee-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… and saying that, ”Okay, if you go there, you will have a good service.” Because the concierge not only experience themselves, but they have relationship with those partners as well-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… which is a privilege between for, for that and this is, as a destination again, it’s kind of like so precious because it makes the, the, the, the hotel run, the revenue run, the city or the tourism industry run, so it’s all linked together.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So yeah. I think so, this is going to be, to be that human touch-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… it’s going to go to the next level of being always more and more professional and educated. And that association I’m talking about, they have yearly, um, yearly conventions-
[Joel]
Yes.
[Pascal]
… that they gather once a year in any countries or capitals in the world. And one of the big part nowadays is that educational, um, s- educational part. So they will have a topic about customer service or about different kind of topic-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… to make their competence better.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? It’s just to say that it comes back always to how do you improve yourself, how do you are, are, you are more empathic of different kind of people that is surrounding you, and how do you learn in able to in order to be able to provide that.
[Joel]
Yeah. Do you miss the times being part of, um, this concierge organization?
[Pascal]
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. That was like, at times almost intimidating because you, as I mentioned, you really work with legend-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… legends or you meet some of those, those legends. And, it’s something that is going to stay in my heart. And I’m still part of, there is an association in Finland that is called Suomen Hotellinportieet.
[Joel]
Okay.
[Pascal]
So all the people from receptions, I recommend them to join that-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… because one of their mission is also to educate and to… When you meet with other people that are working from different hotels-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… you share stories and then you learn how to handle better situations-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… or things like that. So it’s very, very, mentally healthy-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… as well in that sense because our industry is challenging. So when you’re able to share those moments, and those moments are… This is one of the thing being part of a concierge, it’s really stay between us, this is not something that we actually advertise or published anywhere-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… because the privacy of our customer is so important. So, but, yeah, I’m… In a way, I’m still part of because these people are my friends.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
And some, some of the best, best, best people in, in Helsinki, so.
[Joel]
Nice. Nice. I, I hear there’s a lot of, I would say wisdom, part of this organization and-
[Pascal]
Absolutely.
[Joel]
… of course, wisdom takes work.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
You need to really build the foundation and-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… learn the skills and you gain experience.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
And, it would be very interesting to, partake in one of these-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… meetings, whether it’s some local get-together just to get to know the-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… the true experts of hospitality-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… I would say.
[Pascal]
And the people with… They know have to, they know how to have fun as well.
[Joel]
Okay.
[Pascal]
So friendly, yes.
[Joel]
[laughs] Nice.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Um, last question. Um, if you could design tomorrow’s hotel-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… without any current constraints-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… budget, technology, regulations, you name it, no constraints-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… what would be the one radical thing you’d change?
[Pascal]
[laughs]
If I would change it… What I, again, what I like, what I would like to create myself, uh, it’s probably something that would have to go with, how to optimize and how to be how healthy as possible. To have the best bed, the best air in the room, everything that has to do with health-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… but, research, understood what is the effect of having a certain temperature or a certain type of pillow or a certain type of beds, to the optimal in that sense. This is something that I’m, I’m, I’m really, that I… If I would have know, known. But then again, I still want all those different hotels and different styles of hotels to exist.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Because I want to be part… This add to the experience. Sometimes some things I don’t know that I like yet-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… I go there and just like, ”Wow, I’m blown away.”
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
I want those moments as well. When you go a little bit out of your comfort zone-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… sometimes you have those surprises that becomes new, new things that becomes part of your life or something that you like.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
Amazing. Wow, we’ve covered a lot.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Uh-
[Pascal]
Yes, I have so much more to say now. [laughs]
[Joel]
[laughs] Uh, we covered the topics of revenue intelligence, um, collection, not a chain philosophy, the Canadian eye on Finnish hospitality, we touched upon, uh, total revenue management, if that is the correct term for, not just room sales but everything else, and a little bit about the future.
Um, to connect all of these, from your point of view, what is the one thing
that connects revenue intelligence to collection not chains and so forth?
[Pascal]
Uh, what connects… Well, yeah, people.
[Joel]
People.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Yeah, yeah.
[Pascal]
It’s all about people at the end of the day.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
The more, the more people that, that you, you have, and, and, this, this what makes it different in that sense.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And also, it’s so important for the destinations-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
That it creates jobs, and those jobs that are created are passion about the industry as well.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So they are also customers-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
So they’re the one that gonna try the different restaurant and different other hotels, and they might spend a little bit more than the, the other industries in those-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… in their own free time-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense. So, yeah.
[Joel]
Nice. So as mentioned before, at here at Haaga-Helia, we have this project called Finnish Hotel of Tomorrow 2.0.
[Pascal]
Yes, yes.
[Joel]
And why 2.0? Because we already did Finnish Hotel of Tomorrow 1.0-
[Pascal]
Exactly. [laughs]
[Joel]
… back in the day. Um, and we’re constantly developing. We’re still running roughly a year, uh, from now, this project, and we’re developing and testing these concepts, in real life, Finnish hotels. Um, from everything we’ve discussed, what do you see as the biggest opportunity of, for Finnish hotels, to act on right now? Not in five years, not in 10 years, but right now, or let’s say next year-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… 2026.
[Pascal]
Yeah. Be close to your data and provide excellent customer service.
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
Those are the, the things because also the data, we didn’t talk it so much about it, but we also have access of all the reviews that you get.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Listen to your customers. Reply. When you reply also to your customer, reply to the good ones as well.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So many of the hotels, what they will do is that they, there’s somebody that complains, and they will specially reply to that person on that platform. But the people that gives good comments, you have to highlight those and say, ”Thank you very much for your good feedbacks.” And this is kind of like that community that you develop within your own hotel-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense. So using those reviews and the data, and it’s so far and that you even have those platform, from the reviews that they will highlight, ah, okay, what you do really well is the housekeeping. What you do really well is the breakfast. What you don’t do really well maybe, is the light a little bit too dim, in that room-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in the common area or something like this. So when you’re able to, to fix those thing and listen to those things, then you-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… you become better all the time, and so you make less mistakes.
[Joel]
Nice. Nice.
[Pascal]
So, yeah.
[Joel]
Excellent. So my source materials say, ”The soul of hospitality will always lie in its ability to connect human beings-
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
… to each other and to the places they visit.” How does this guide your work?
[Pascal]
How does this guide my work?
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Uh-
[Joel]
This is repeating what we’ve said, but-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… just to-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… reflect on this.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
The, the soul of hospitality will always lie in its ability to connect human beings to each other and to the places they visit.
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
Again, talking about destinations-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… people-
[Pascal]
Yeah.
[Joel]
… connecting.
[Pascal]
Yeah. That, what comes to my mind when, when I hear that sentence is that the, again, when we talk about the, the frontline-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… right? They are the souls of the destination as well.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? So very often, there will be the first contact when you have somebody from another country, there will be a first contact of your culture within the destination where you are reality.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
And this is so important to share that moment with whoever that is coming. You don’t need to go far. Sometimes there is small difference between different cities even in, in Finland.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right? Different accents or, different, type of people-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… uh, that, that are working. The, the people working in the front line is a great reflection of what society is now.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
For example, we know in my hotels, we have people from Finland. We have-
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
… people from many different part of the world. The same in the kitchen. We have people from different backgrounds, and this is the reality of today that we’re able to share with our customer-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… in that sense to provide the best experience in Finland.
[Joel]
Nice.
[Pascal]
So yeah, that’s that, that human touch-
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
… is something that people are actually looking for.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Going back a little bit to the very basic when you’re with friends, one is host, one is visiting. That moment is so special.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
Right?
[Joel]
I really need to visit your house. [laughs]
[Pascal]
[laughs] You’re welcome.
[Joel]
It sounds like an-
[Pascal]
Very welcome.
[Joel]
… excellent experience.
[Pascal]
Yes.
[Joel]
Um, so our signature question, so we ask our guests every time one particular question. I never share it, or we don’t, share it with our guests because we want to have this really authentic, um, reaction.
So Pascal, in your opinion, what is the ideal ratio between human and machine in percentages in serving customers in tomorrow’s hotel?
[Pascal]
Wow. Okay. The ideal ratio. What’s that? And it’s funny because I’m a numbers guy and then-
[Joel]
Exactly.
[Pascal]
… I struggle with that one now-
[Joel]
[laughs]
[Pascal]
… the, the real ratio. Again
[sighs] it depends of the style of your hotel and what you want to provide. I am happy that there is different hotels than my hotels.
[Joel]
Mm-hmm.
[Pascal]
Right? So some of the hotels, they will be 100%, and it will answer a certain type of people, and I’m very happy that it does. It’s not my style, but for them it works, either because it’s more efficient, because it’s cost saving, or not necessarily cost saving, it’s just convenient in that moment of time. It’s not something that necessarily that I enjoy the most, but it might be even convenient for me in some cases.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So that’s why the ratio will be different…Laittaa for according to different type of people some people you know that you will see much more. The receptionist you will see the waiter you will see the housekeeping. And then when everything works, the housekeeping is giving you a nod and saying Good morning because they are going by. I like this stuff, it makes me feel good.
So that’s the thing that I kind of think that okay, you can have machine does those things. But when we do good service in a right way, it’s so much more rewarding than having a machine that goes by and doing everything automatically. It’s great for different reasons, but this doesn’t take away the magic that we provide as human to human connection in that sense.
Yeah. So machine are there for convenience. So yeah, so I would say it really it there is so many so many. This different system for me, for example, I’m working in my in revenue management I would say 70 to 60%. And after that I will work with the marketing and sales and the front line and, and so on that human contact. So it really depends of the of the department, but for
it’s the best ratio. Yeah, maybe 50 50 I would say. Yeah.
[Joel]
Yeah.
[Pascal]
So if you count the check in systems and the booking engine and yeah, so.
[Joel]
No that’s a good answer journey.
[Pascal]
The journey. Yeah.
[Joel]
Yeah. There’s no right answer.
[Pascal]
The journey of the customers from the moment that they’re looking for destination to the hotel to the moment that they arrive to the hotels. There’s entire systems there that we don’t even realize that are going on. So that’s why that’s that ratio is very, very challenging because it’s quite high already. Yeah.
[Joel]
Excellent answer.
But hey, it has been a huge pleasure to have you here on our podcast. Hope we’re going to talk with you in some other episode, maybe because we touched upon so many different topics so we can revisit them, go way deeper in certain aspects, whether it’s from customer point of view or data point of view or technology point of view. Yes. Or just pure hospitality.
[Pascal]
If you ask back then, yeah. Thank you for inviting me to our already award winning podcast. Yeah, congratulations. Thank you to you both. That’s absolutely fantastic.
[Joel]
Yes, very much appreciate you coming here and thank you. Humble
thank you for our listeners. Hope you weren’t too surprised about language change, but this was our first English version and hoping to have many more because it’s always fun to tweak and twist the patterns from Finnish to English etcetera.
But hope you stay tuned. Follow us on Spotify here. We are also on YouTube nowadays. Of course you can find me and Pascal on LinkedIn and so forth.
For the next episode, which will be recorded later on, we’ll explore the interesting and I would say intriguing areas of data security and cybersecurity. So stay tuned for that. But until next time, keep innovating, keep hosting, keep being the best version of yourself.
[Pascal]
Absolutely.
[Joel]
And remember that technology should only amplify humanity, not replace it.
[Pascal]
That’s right. Yes. Thank you.
Hey, thank you. Have a great day!
[rytmikästä musiikkia]
Kuuntelet tai katsot podcastia huomisen hotellissa Ihminen vai kone? Tämä podcast pohtii ja luo keskustelua siitä, missä suhteessa meitä palvelee ihminen ja kone tulevaisuuden hotellissa. Miten teknologiset ratkaisut voivat mullistaa hospitality alaa ja kuinka pitkälle ne kykenevät asiakaspalvelussa? Onko henkilökohtainen palvelu ihmiseltä ihmiselle tulevaisuudessa luksusta? Pyrimme löytämään käytännönläheisiä ideoita, inspiroivia esimerkkejä sekä strategista näkemystä tulevaisuuden haasteisiin ja mahdollisuuksiin.
Podcastin taustavoimana on hanke Finnish Hotel of Tomorrow 2.0. Hankkeessa toimivat Haaga-Helia ja Metropolia. Uusilla ja testatuilla palvelukonsepteilla sekä kiinteistöteknologisilla ratkaisuilla tuetaan majoitus ja rakennusalan liiketoimintaa. Hankkeen rahoittaa Uudenmaan liitto ja Euroopan unionin Euroopan aluekehitysrahasto EAKR.
Ja moikka! Mun nimi on Joel Pakalén. Opetan Haaga-Heliassa lehtorina palveluliiketoimintaa ja olen työskennellyt sekä hotelleissa että teknologia alustojen parissa. Minua kiinnostaa eniten se, miten teknologia voi itse asiassa auttaa ihmisiä kohtaamaan aidosti. Uskon, että teknologia ei vie inhimillisyyttä pois. Se vapauttaa. Se antaa meille enemmän aikaa keskittyä siihen, mikä vieraanvaraisuudessa todella merkitsee.
Moi! Mä oon Niemelän Maija, ravintolaliiketoiminnan lehtori Haaga-Heliasta. Mulle on kertynyt työkokemusta parikymmentä vuotta ravintoloista ja tapahtumista. Minulle henkilökohtainen palvelukokemus on arjen luksusta ja mä nautin tosi paljon onnistuneista kohtaamisista ihmisten kanssa sekä itse asiakaspalvelijan roolissa että palveltavana.